Why didn't Susan appear in the Last Battle?

[Tim Bruening]

We don't see her in Aslan's country because she is *alive*. She's not
in Hell, she is in England.

Yes, she wasn't the one who decided not to buy a ticket on the train that
crashed, killing Peter, Edmund and Lucy. Lewis decided that.

But being alive isn't an obstacle to visiting Narnia. They were always
alive before, and it only meant that they had to go back. What seems
to matter more is that Susan is an apostate - former - Narnian, which
is a metaphor or allegory for an apostate - former - Christian. There
are bible verses that say that when you're out, your friends on the
inside should give up on winning you back.

The point is that Lewis could have decided, without doing any violence to
the plot, to have Susan die in the train accident and then be one of the
creatures who reject Aslan at the stable door. He didn't. We know Susan
isn't there, but we don't know what becomes of her ultimately.

I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

[Nyrath the nearly wise]

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.

According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

Note also that there is no reason Susan can't get to heaven. She
just can't get there by way of Narnia. She was not with her
brothers and sister in the train wreck; she's still alive back in
England, and we don't know what will later become of her, because
... that's part of someone else's story.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

[Remus Shepherd]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

Note also that there is no reason Susan can't get to heaven. She
just can't get there by way of Narnia. She was not with her
brothers and sister in the train wreck; she's still alive back in
England, and we don't know what will later become of her, because
... that's part of someone else's story.

Susan's redemption seems to be a popular topic whenever people talk
about Narnia. I forget which writing forum I read this on. But it's
Jo Walton's work, and I'm glad I saved it:

The worst of it was that she'd quarrelled with them
And now they were dead, all dead, her parents too,
Nobody left but her awful aunt and uncle,
Whose faces collapsed like their future.
Still she stood at the graveside, calm, composed,
Pale-faced, with folded hands, her shoulders back,
She'd been a queen once-in-a-dream,
She was left alone but she knew how to behave.
If only they'd not quarrelled in these last few years..
They'd called her shallow and she'd called them babes,
They had not wanted to grow up, they never would.
She, more than ever, knew she had no choice.
The service droned, but something -- she looked up
Saw cassock, surplice, and a lion's eyes.

- Jo Walton

... ...
Remus Shepherd <***@panix.com>
Indefensible Positions -- a story of superheroic philosophy.
http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/

[Peter Kendell]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

But he leaves it there, doesn't he? The issue remains unresolved.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Note also that there is no reason Susan can't get to heaven. She
just can't get there by way of Narnia. She was not with her
brothers and sister in the train wreck; she's still alive back in
England, and we don't know what will later become of her, because
... that's part of someone else's story.

But is there such a thing as "later" in Narnian Heaven?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Peter Kendell

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

But he leaves it there, doesn't he? The issue remains unresolved.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Note also that there is no reason Susan can't get to heaven. She
just can't get there by way of Narnia. She was not with her
brothers and sister in the train wreck; she's still alive back in
England, and we don't know what will later become of her, because
... that's part of someone else's story.

But is there such a thing as "later" in Narnian Heaven?

There is definitely such a thing as "later" on Earth, and that's
where Susan is.

You might like to take a look at another work by Lewis, _The
Great Divorce,_ from which I quote a line from one of the blest
in Heaven to a living visitor: "Son, you cannot in your present
state understand Eternity." Everything we say about Heaven,
being still on Earth, has got to be metaphorical. It is our job,
while still on Earth, to work at turning ourselves into the kind
of person who will one day be able to get to Heaven, about which
we know very little really except that we will be with God and
we'll be happy.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.

If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
be in Heaven?

[Nyrath the nearly wise]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
be in Heaven?

From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis

"And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
even his self-made misery?"

"Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
day and many a year in their earthly life."

"Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."

"What then?"

"I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."

"Ye see it does not."

"I feel in a way that it ought to."

"That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."

"What?"

"The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."

"I don't know what I want, Sir."

"Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."

[SS13]

On Mar 17, 1:14 am, Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
be in Heaven?

From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis
"And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
even his self-made misery?"
"Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
day and many a year in their earthly life."
"Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."
"What then?"
"I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."
"Ye see it does not."
"I feel in a way that it ought to."
"That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."
"What?"
"The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."
"I don't know what I want, Sir."
"Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."

Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
to enter Heaven... but not Susan.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by SS13
On Mar 17, 1:14 am, Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

Lucy doesn't seem to me mature enough to buy that philosophy.
If you don't care about your friends, even apostate ones, do you deserve to
be in Heaven?

From THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis
"And yet . . . and yet ... ," said I to my Teacher, when all the shapes and
the singing had passed some distance away into the forest, "even now I am not
quite sure. Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery,
even his self-made misery?"
"Would ye rather he still had the power of tormenting her? He did it many a
day and many a year in their earthly life."
"Well, no. I suppose I don't want that."
"What then?"
"I hardly know, Sir. What some people say on earth is that the final loss of
one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."
"Ye see it does not."
"I feel in a way that it ought to."
"That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."
"What?"
"The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be
allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final
power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."
"I don't know what I want, Sir."
"Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy
prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness
they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll accept no
salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that
sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe."

Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
to enter Heaven... but not Susan.

I did find it surprising that at least one dwarf who had lost faith in Aslan and
killed Talking Horses made it into Heaven.

[Roberto Abajo]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by SS13
Yes, But killing Susan with the others wouldn't be a problem! The
Pevensie Parents also made it to heaven, and they NEVER were friends
of Narnia! Even some dwarves(that shot at Jill and Eustace) were told
to enter Heaven... but not Susan.

I did find it surprising that at least one dwarf who had lost faith in
Aslan and killed Talking Horses made it into Heaven.

In understanding *The Last Battle* you have to remember that it's not just
an end to the Narnia series, but also is an allegory for the New Testament
end-of-the world story (Christian Eschatology).

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall
deceive the very elect." -- Matthew 24:24

The Dwarves who shoot at the children are a case in point. They do so to
the to the tune of, "the Dwarves are for the Dwarves", recent events
(having been sold as slaves to the Tisroc) creating a not un-natural deep
distrust. They clearly are done with holding to traditional Narnian values.

As for Susan, she is not like the Dwarf archers so much as the other
Dwarves who were locked in the stable with J & E. Even in Heaven's
Vestibule, they believe (and really perceive) themselves to be kept in some
sort of dark and foul place. They will not enter heaven, ultimately
because they will not allow themselves -- it doesn't exist for them.

By the time of TLB, Susan is pictured as habitually saying to her siblings,
"Fancy your going on about the games we used to play as children!" whenever
Narnia comes up. She doesn't remember that *this* game was real. So how,
in absence of basic belief that there is such a place, can she ever enter
there?

When I read of the Pevensie parents' death, I just took it for granted that
they were among the righteous who died in that train wreck, and of course
didn't have to be friends of Narnia to enjoy Heaven. Remember that the
"real" (eternal) Narnia is a subsection of Aslan's Country (Heaven), just
as the "real" Earth is.

BTW, it's not as though Susan were barred from Heaven forever. When TLB
closes, she can still be going to make over at some point in Earth's
future. Lewis nowhere says that she is a bad or malicious adult, just very
silly, which people sometimes get over. :-)

RA

[AJA]

Post by Roberto Abajo
She doesn't remember that *this* game was real. So how,
in absence of basic belief that there is such a place, can she ever enter
there?

Susan's story doesn't end with the end of the book, does it?

Post by Roberto Abajo
BTW, it's not as though Susan were barred from Heaven forever. When TLB
closes, she can still be going to make over at some point in Earth's
future. Lewis nowhere says that she is a bad or malicious adult, just very
silly, which people sometimes get over. :-)

Absolutely. It is very interesting that people do get so worked up about
poor Susan. I guess that's a testament to CSL that he's depicted such a
real person in Susan that one cares very much what happens to her. What you
say above is the very point. Susan's story goes on.

Best,
Ann

[Robert Shaw]

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

That's deriving an 'ought' from an 'is' - logically unsound.

If Lucy is incapable of unhappiness, that's also an infringement
of free will.

[Robert Shaw]

Post by Nyrath the nearly wise

Post by Tim Bruening
I'm surprised that Lucy didn't cite Susan's absence as an obstacle to
being perfectly happy in Narnia Heaven!

C.S. Lewis explains why this is not so in THE GREAT DIVORCE.
According to Lewis, all apostates reject heaven by their
own free will. If those in heaven cannot be happy due
to their apostate friends, you are in essence making
the dog in the manger the tyrant of the universe.

That's deriving an 'is' from an 'ought' - logically unsound.
Susan ought not be able to prevent Lucy from being happy
but many things that ought not happen do, and things ought to
don't.

Also, if Lucy is incapable of unhappiness, that seems like an
infringement of her free will.

[Tim Bruening]

And after all, if Susan was a child of, say, ten or twelve during
World War Two, she's likely already there.

Side note - I'm rereading Narnia this week ... and apparently now I'm old
enough to realize what religion Eustace's parents might be. (Though what
they're doing living calmly in England at that time, if I'm correct, beats the
heck out of me...)

What religion do you think his parents are? What makes you think they are of that
religion?

[David DeLaney]

Post by Tim Bruening

And after all, if Susan was a child of, say, ten or twelve during
World War Two, she's likely already there.

Side note - I'm rereading Narnia this week ... and apparently now I'm old
enough to realize what religion Eustace's parents might be. (Though what
they're doing living calmly in England at that time, if I'm correct, beats the
heck out of me...)

What religion do you think his parents are? What makes you think they are of that
religion?

...We already went over this, discussed it, came to conclusions, discussed some
side topics that grew out of it, and are DONE with it. Honestly, Tim, please
learn to respond to things that have happened within the last few DAYS some
time, rather than picking from the entire past history of Usenet each time you
want to respond to something!

Dave "and learn to actually read the threads that already exist, too, while
you're at it" DeLaney

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Tim Bruening

And after all, if Susan was a child of, say, ten or twelve during
World War Two, she's likely already there.

Side note - I'm rereading Narnia this week ... and apparently now I'm old
enough to realize what religion Eustace's parents might be. (Though what
they're doing living calmly in England at that time, if I'm correct, beats the
heck out of me...)

What religion do you think his parents are? What makes you think they are of that
religion?

...We already went over this, discussed it, came to conclusions, discussed some
side topics that grew out of it, and are DONE with it. Honestly, Tim, please
learn to respond to things that have happened within the last few DAYS some
time, rather than picking from the entire past history of Usenet each time you
want to respond to something!
Dave "and learn to actually read the threads that already exist, too, while
you're at it" DeLaney

rasfw award with bells on.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
***@kithrup.com

[Tim Bruening]

And after all, if Susan was a child of, say, ten or twelve during
World War Two, she's likely already there.

Side note - I'm rereading Narnia this week ... and apparently now
I'm
old enough to realize what religion Eustace's parents might be.
(Though what they're doing living calmly in England at that time, if
I'm correct, beats the heck out of me...)

Why do you think that, and, England being one of the few places in
Europe they could live calmly, why not?

Because Germany might have invaded England. Germany wanted to, but let
itself get distracted by an invasion of Russia.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Tim Bruening

And after all, if Susan was a child of, say, ten or twelve during
World War Two, she's likely already there.

Side note - I'm rereading Narnia this week ... and apparently now
I'm
old enough to realize what religion Eustace's parents might be.
(Though what they're doing living calmly in England at that time, if
I'm correct, beats the heck out of me...)

Why do you think that, and, England being one of the few places in
Europe they could live calmly, why not?

Because Germany might have invaded England. Germany wanted to, but let
itself get distracted by an invasion of Russia.

Oh, good grief. No. Germany was dead-set on invading England,
but the RAF wouldn't let them. (Google "Battle of Britain.) It
was after they gave up on England that they invaded Russia.

"Let itself get distracted," indeed.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
***@kithrup.com